Plé:Traenálaí

nach mbeadh bainisteoir níos oiriúnaí?? http://focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=manager traenálaí = trainer....--212.129.80.131 16:07, 12 Meitheamh 2010 (UTC)

The term trainer/coach is by far the most common and accurate term for this role. A quick look through the interwiki list will show this. Also, unless you're being specific to Gaelic games, they're two different roles. This is explained at the end of the article. The role of manager in association football for example is a very specific and almost redundant one. You'll find more information through the references and external links on the page. If this article doesn't cover the role of "bainisteoir" in Gaelic games adequately, then a separate section or article can be created. Onetonycousins 16:45, 12 Meitheamh 2010 (UTC)

Tuigim., mar shampla., Alex Ferguson, "a Scottish football manager, currently managing Manchester United". René Meulensteen is the coach don phríomh fhoireann agus Tony Strudwick is the "fitness coach". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_F.C.#Club_officials

Anois, as gaeilge, d'úsáidfinn Traenálaí chun tagairt a dhéanamh ach go háirithe do Tony agus b'fhéidir René ach i gcomhair Alex Ferguson is é Alex Ferguson bainisteoir Manchester United...?

Bainisteoir agus iar-imreoir sacair Albanach is ea Sir Alex Ferguson OBE (rugadh Alexander Chapman Ferguson ar 31 Nollaig, 1941 i nGovan, Glaschú). Tá Ferguson ina bhainisteoir ar Manchester United F.C. ó 1986, agus is é an bainisteoir is rathúil i sacar Sasanach. Bhí Ferguson ina bhainisteoir freisin leis na foirne Albanacha Aberdeen F.C., East Stirlingshire, St. Mirren agus an fhoireann náisiúnta féin ar feadh tamaill, tar éis báis Jock Stein. http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Ferguson ach tá sé rangaithe le Traenálaí.

--Spaircí 13:59, 29 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

As this article states, football in the UK is or was an exception to the rule. In most countries you don't have managers, you have coaches (head coaches), assistant coaches, goalkeeping coaches and various types of preparers. You don't have an all powerful "manager" "managing a football club". Football in the UK is now coming around to this due to foreign influence, hence the above comment regarding the role of manager becoming a redundant one. Onetonycousins 14:13, 29 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

Well then why not confine the term bainisteoir for uk managers...?

My knowledge of irish wouldnt be the best but traenalaí to me implies trainer as opposed to bainisteoir which I would have always assumed manager (given its use in GAA parlance) meant the likes of alex ferguson or roy hogdson etc... I would assume bainisteoir is the term TG4 and irish publications would use in this context as well.--Spaircí 19:25, 29 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

"Bainisteoir" an focal ceart i mo thuairim. Tá an focal "bainisteoir" níos údarásaí. Úsáideann NUIM, Comhairle Chathrach Bhaile Átha Cliath, An Spailpín Fánach, Beo, An Roinn Turasóireachta, Cultúir agus Spóirt an téarma "bainisteoir" nó "bainisteoir sacair". B'fhéidir go bhfuil traenálaí níos cruinne ná bainisteoir, ach is é bainisteoir an leagan coiteann. --MacTire02 21:11, 29 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

MacTire02, I'd appreciate it if you didn't cite naming conventions or guidelines from the english language wikipedia as they have very little relevance here. Each wiki has its own set of guidelines and levels of severity in terms of how they should be applied. The english language wiki favours commonness in its language over accuracy, to the extreme. Other wikis do not take this approach. Abbreviations are ridiculously prevalent in the english wiki. Again, other wikis do not take this approach. There are plenty of other examples in the same vein. The users of Vicipéid na Gaeilge can decide what type of encyclopedia it is.

Spaircí, this article is about the role of a sports coach, as the external links and references on the page suggest. It's pretty straightforward. If you want to create an article titled Bainisteoir and write about gaa or football terminology/structure in the UK, then fire away. If you want to catagorize british coaches using the term ("confine the term bainisteoir for uk managers"), again no objection. Onetonycousins 18:13, 30 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

Onetonycousins, in fairness the usage of English wiki naming conventions has been used on this project since its inception several years ago, and as there is no current procedure on this project for naming articles, the majority of users do indeed tend to default to the commonname. That is the reason I mentioned it. You say the english wiki favours commonnames in its approach while others do not. This is far from accurate. Take Manchester United F.C., which you renamed as Manchester United Football Club, as an example - you state other wikis do not use such an approach. However, if you check the interwikis (disregarding the Arabic, Chinese, japanese examples as I can not read them) you can see the following wikis do indeed use commonname: be, bs, bg, cv, cs, cy, da, gv, gl, hr, id, jv, sw, ku, la, lb, lt, hu, mk, mt, ms, nl, no, uz, pms, pl, kaa, ro, sco, sq, sk, sl, szl, sh, fi, sv, tg, and tr. That's 38 wikis using commonname as their method for naming that club. Secondly, you should pop round to your local soccer game as Gaeilge, where you will find the head man at the side of the pitch is known as the bainisteoir while there are usually several traenálaithe (sometimes filling in if the manager is unavailable). "bainisteoir" in sports means the person who decides who is on the team for a given match, when training occurs, methods of training, etc. The "traenálaí" focuses on the specific skillsets of the players. While the tendency to name the head man may come from Gaelic games, the fact is that that is the term used. Ask any member of a Gaeltacht football team who their "head person" is and they will say "bainisteoir", not "traenálaí".

The comment directly above (unsigned by MacTire02) appears to be largely off topic, some of it nonsensical but I'll address it nevertheless. The title Manchester United F.C. isn't a common name, it's an abbreviated name. Manchester United would be a common name. Those other wikis obviously take the same minnowistic approach that we apparently do, i.e. follow the english wikipedia.

Secondly, I won't be taking football lessons (or rather, gibberish & personal opinion) from someone who calls the sport soccer, unfortunately. The use of that word and Manchester United as an example sets the alarm bells ringing pretty quickly. If there are any fellow League of Ireland supporters on here (proper football fans) or people with an interest in Spanish football, Italian football, etc., their input would be welcome. Likewise, users with an interest in other sports as this article is about coaches in all sports, not just football. Go raibh maith agat. Onetonycousins 00:19, 31 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I think I'll leave it at that then so. You obviously have a point of view you want enforced, and I don't think you seem interested in opinions of those who differ from you. Firstly, I never offered football lessons so I think you can climb down off your high horse there. Secondly, I called it soccer to differentiate it from other football games, i.e. Gaelic football, Canadian football, American football, Australian rules football, rugby football, etc. And please note that there are plenty here in Ireland too who call the game soccer - it's not just an American phenomenon - you should go to a Sligo Rovers game in the Showgrounds where plenty call it soccer. Thirdly, I never said Manchester United F.C. was a common name - I stated that the policy "commonname" (as indicated here) was used by those wikis. There is a difference. Please read other editors' comments properly before jumping down their throats. That said, I think I'll leave this conversation as I do not wish to engage with somebody who obviously thinks inserting rude comments is appropriate, and who obviously does not speak Irish to a sufficient degree. Learn the difference between "bainisteoir" and "traenálaí". "Bainisteoir" does not directly translate as "manager", whereas "traenálaí" does directly translate as "trainer", but is a neologism and directly borrowed from English. But based on some of your previous work in writing articles where you do not seem to understand what even the definite article is in Irish, and where it should and should not be used, then I'm not surprised that you seem to think each word is directly translatable, and has only one other corresponding word in another language. --MacTire02 08:22, 31 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

PS: just as an aside - something to think about. "Bainisteoir" does not translate directly as "manager", although this is the most common translation. It can also mean director, leader, controller, etc. The role entitled "manager" in English is most accurately covered by the Irish term "bainisteoir", and it is this word that accurately describes the role played by Alex Ferguson, Benitez, Pat Fenlon, Seán Boylan, et al. However, the word "traenálaí" has two meanings: 1) the person who trains a team, guides a team, guides a player, trains horses, etc., and 2) a person who trains. For example, someone in preparation, on their own and without guidance, can call themselves a "traenálaí". In other words, "is traenálaí mé" can have two meanings: "I am a trainer" (i.e. someone who coaches, trains, etc.), or it can mean "I am a trainer" in the sense that the person exercises everyday with a particular long-term goal in mind. Someone who jogs everyday in preparation for a marathon (example) can describe themselves as a "traenálaí", but never a "bainisteoir". --MacTire02 10:13, 31 Iúil 2010 (UTC)

i originally started this discussion on your talk page because i thought my problem wasnt necessarily about this page but rather about the catogorising english managers such as fergie and roy hodgson under this term. They are english managers ie bainisteoirí and dont fall under the general term your using which in fairness you have conceeded.

I think the problem is that in english manager is more common when talking abut football, ie pat fenlon is the bohs manager, o neill is shamrock rovers manager, buckley is sporting fingal manager etc. Likewise in irish if iwas talking to my LOI friends from UCD (who are studying irish with me) we would refer to them as bainisteoirí and definitely not traenálaí. That said while one might refer to Jose Mourinho as manager of real madrid even on skysports or whatever technically (according to eng wiki) he is head coach. So i think we need to decide as a community what word should be used or at least what way they should be catagorised. While manager might not be correct to refer to "coaches" outside of england on the eng wiki they are still catagorised as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Association_football_managers 8using jose as an eg despite being real madrid head coach he still falls under: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Real_Madrid_C.F._managers

I personally think bainisteoir is what normally gaelgeóirí would use for that guy who stands at the standline shouting instructions and organising the team (mactíre has provided external cites for its use in football). Traenalaí I would have thought is more specific to training or coaching. Can you provide an example of it being used to refer to a normal manager/coach person? --Spaircí 17:29, 31 Iúil 2010 (UTC)