Plé úsáideora:Cathal Óg/Cumann na nGaedhael

I take it you have nothing against some grammatical corrections, as you put this page here before you put it into the main Vicipéid.

Is páirtí polaitiúil é Cumann na nGaedhael a bhí ann ó 1923 go dtí 1933.

This is entirely OK. I myself would use ón mbliain 1923 go dtí an bhliain 1933, but I agree it might sound a little pedantic.

Fabhraigh an pháirtí ón chuid de Sinn Féin a ghlac le Conradh 1921, faoi Micheál Ó Coileáin.

• To start with, the past tense of a verb beginning with f- always drops the f- (writing it as fh-) and adds a d'. Thus, d'fhabhraigh. A beautiful Ulster Irish verb that, "fabhraigh" in the sense of "develop". Other possibilities would be d'eascair, d'fhorbair, and fáisceadh.

• Páirtí is masculine, so no lenition after an in nominative: an páirtí, not *an pháirtí.

• Ón chuid de: After the combination "simple preposition" + "singular definite article" (such as here ó + an), the noun can either be lenited (ón chuid) or eclipsed (ón gcuid). The most important exceptions are den and don, which always lenite in the standard language. The standard allows either lenition (ón chuid) or eclipsis (ón gcuid) in this particular instance, but I would prefer eclipsis, because it is used both in Munster and in Connacht - ón chuid is pure Ulster Irish, albeit recognized by the standard language. Personally, although I am well-known for my predilection for Ulster forms, I prefer the more widespread alternative in the Vicipéid, but it is most important that an article should be consistent about it. - I might want to prefer as, i.e. as an chuid nó as an gcuid, but I don't say ó is wrong.

• After de, Sinn Féin should be lenited: de Shinn Féin. Of course, it is not very strict, remembering that Sinn Féin is a proper name, and proper names do tend to resist lenition and eclipsis rules to some extent. I would however prefer to lenite Sinn Féin, as it is a purely Irish proper name.

• A ghlac le Conradh 1921 is otherwise OK, but I would prefer the received term for that particular Treaty, i.e. an Conradh Angla-Éireannach: "...a ghlac leis an gConradh Angla-Éireannach..." or in Ulster "...a ghlac leis an Chonradh Angla-Éireannach...".

• Bhí sé i gcumhacht ó 1923 go dtí 1932 - this is of course entirely correcth, although I would myself use "ón mbliain 1923 go dtí an bhliain 1932". Again, this is just my personal preference.

• ar dtús mar rialtas sealadach agus ansin mar rialtas tofa - this is also entirely correct.

• go dtí gur chaill siad todhchán 1932 go Fianna Fáil. - I would suggest d'Fhianna Fáil.

• Chomhcheangail siad leis an Páirtí Lárnach Náisiúnta agus Lucht na Léinte Gorma chun Fine Gael a bhunú i Mean Fomhair 1933. - Again, please note that you need to eclipse or to lenite the noun after leis an: either leis an Pháirtí Lárnach Náisiúnta or leis an Pháirtí Lárnach Náisiúnta. For the sake of clarity, I would add another le before Lucht na Léinte Gorma. And Meán Fómhair has two fadas. But otherwise OK.

• Roimh an Chonradh - If you want to be consistently Ultonian, this is OK. But other dialects prefer roimh an gConradh. Both are standard Irish.

• Bhunaidh Art Ó Gríofa eagraíocht darbh ainm Cumann na nGaedhael sa bhliain 1900 chun fheachtas a eagrú i gcoinne cuairt Rí Éadbháird VII agus Banríon Alexandra chuig Éirinn. - Mostly small corrections: bhunaigh not bhunaidh (this is entirely an orthographical thing, no difference in pronunciation); chun feachtas a eagrú - when chun starts a verbal noun construction, it does not affect the object of the verbal noun. (The only exception is the definite noun, which in Munster is put into genitive after chun even in this sort of construction: chun an fheachtais a eagrú would be Munster Irish for "in order to organize THE campaign". But outside Ulster, chun an feachtas a eagrú even when there is a definite article.) And I would prefer "cuairt...ar Éirinn", cf. the construction "cuairt a thabhairt ar Éirinn", where it is customary to use "ar"

I hope you aren't offended by my suggestions. I certainly didn't mean to irritate you in any way. I have spent years over texts written by native authors in order to acquire a perfect command of Irish, and I would like to impart my knowledge to others. Panu Petteri Höglund 00:12, 11 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

• chomhcheangail an eagraíocht le eagraíochtaí éigsiúla eile chun Sinn Féin a bhúnú. After "le", add h- to a vowel. Agus of course, éagsúla not éigsiúla. Éigsiúil would sound as if derived from éigse. Panu Petteri Höglund 11:41, 13 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

• An Páirtí Tar Éis An Conradh Angla-Éireannach - Tar éis is a compound preposition and needs a genitive. An Conradh Angla-Éireannach is masculine, so the genitive is an Chonartha Angla-Éireannaigh. ~Thus, "An Páirtí tar éis an Chonartha Angla-Éireannaigh".Panu Petteri Höglund 11:43, 13 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

• Cuireadh tús leis an dara Cumann na Gaedhael tar éis scaradh i bpáirtí Sinn Féin de bharr an Conradh Angla-Éireannach sa bhliain 1921. - No two definite articles are allowed inside one noun-phrase: an dara Cumann na nGaedheal. One of them must go. Maybe "leis an dara leagan de Chumann na nGaedheal" or even "leis an dara hionchollú de Chumann na nGaedheal". And note that "scaradh" means parting of the ways, not split. Split is scoilt. Note again that a compound preposition needs a genitive: "de bharr an Chonartha Angla-Éireannaigh". Besides, de bharr is about good consequences. De thoradh is neutral, de dheasca is about negative consequences. My proposal: Tháinig an dara leagan/an dara hionchollú de Ch. na nG. ar an bhfód tar éis na scoilte a chuaigh ar Shinn Féin de thoradh an Chonartha Angla-Éireannaigh sa bhliain 1921. Panu Petteri Höglund 11:49, 13 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC) - More later. Panu Petteri Höglund 11:50, 13 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

• Ghlac tromlach leis an gConradh i Dáil Éireann, agus d'fhág an mionlach an Dáil, faoi ceannas Éamon De Valera. To start with, after i, we eclipse the following noun: "i nDáil Éireann". D and T do resist lenition and eclipsis after the combination of preposition + article in singular, thus sa Dáil, but i nDáil Éireann. Note also that after faoi (i.e. just the preposition with no article), the following noun is lenited: "faoi cheannas".

• Rinneadh rialtas sealadach ó 1921 go 1923. Hm-m. I would say Bhí rialtas sealadach i gceannas ar an tír ó 1921 go 1923. Or if there already is a "ceannas" there, we could make it i mbun chúrsaí na tire, which evokes the idea of a government of a more caretakerish kind. Rinneadh rialtas sealadach... sounds as if a provisional government had been in the making during those years.

• agus ansin bhunaíodh páirtí Cumann na nGaedhael as na teachtaí a thacaigh leis an gConradh. Sorry, it seems that I forgot to point out one thing to you: although past tense is

formed by leniting the first consonant of the verb (and adding d' to a vowel or a fh-), the regular autonomous past has a form that ends in -adh or -íodh, is not lenited, and resists all initial mutations: bunaíodh, ar bunaíodh, gur bunaíodh, níor bunaíodh, nár bunaíodh. The form bhunaíodh is an entirely different story, i.e. the personal (not impersonal) form of the habitual past (not the normal past tense): bhunaíodh sé "he used to found, he used to establish". The autonomous form of the normal past tense is lenited only in the Ring of Waterford dialect, and of course the irregular verbs are, well, irregular (chualathas, thángthas, chuathas). By the way, if the past autonomous verb begins with a vowel, a h- (not a d-) is usually prefixed in the dialects: hosclaíodh, hardaíodh, and so on, but this does not seem to be official standard. This is one of the two points where my personal idea of standard Irish is at variance with the official standard. - As regards as in the sense of out of referring to constituent parts, it is quite OK, but the idea that something is "established out of" certain people sounds a little unnatural. I would put it this way: Na teachtaí a thacaigh leis an gConradh, bhunaigh siad Cumann na nGaedheal, mar pháirtí - I guess this is what happened. Note that I took the whole of "na teachtaí a thacaigh leis an gConradh" apart from the rest of the sentence structure and then referred to it with a pronoun in the main clause. This is a usual way to treat a noun (na teachtaí) followed by a relative clause (a thacaigh leis an gConradh) in order not to clutter the main clause.

• Páirtí ar an eite dheis ba ea é don chuid is mó. This is quite correct and good as it is.

• I measc na ceannairí... I measc is the kind of compound preposition that is followed by a genitive, i.e. you must eclipse the first consonant of the noun after the article in plural: "i measc na gceannairí".

• a thacaigh leis an gConradh bhí Art Ó Gríofa agus Micheál Ó Coileáin, ach tar éis deireadh an Cogadh Cathartha, bhí an beirt acu imithe ar slí an fhírinne. OK otherwise, but "ar shlí na fírinne". And "imithe" is a little too much of a good thing, i.e. pleonasm: simply bhí an bheirt acu ar shlí na fírinne. Ar followed by an articleless noun is somewhat irregular in leniting, but in this context it lenites. - And, of course, "the end of the Civil War" calls for a genitive in Irish: deireadh an Chogaidh Chathartha. Note that in English there are two the's, but in Irish only one an. "An deireadh an chogaidh chathartha" with two an's in Irish would be completely wrong.Panu Petteri Höglund 16:31, 14 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

• D'fhágadh Liam T. Mac Cosgair mar ceannaisí ar an bpáirtí Again, I am sorry I didn't point out that thing about past autonomous not being lenited to you earlier. Thus fágadh (although d'fhág in the personal forms). And mar invariably lenites: mar cheannasaí. Ceannasaí, not ceannaisí.

• agus mar an gcéad Úachtarán ar Coiste Feidhmeannaigh Saorstát Éireann. I don't exactly know if "mar + an" still regularly eclipses, although there is enough indication of it (mar an gcéanna for example), and I would actually tend to avoid the regular use of mar with definite nouns for this reason. But of course, it is not wrong to say mar an gcéad Uachtarán. Note that the diphthong ua is not written with fada: Uachtarán. Ar lenites: ar Choiste Feidhmeannach Saorstát Éireann. Not -aigh, it is neither genitive nor feminine dative.Panu Petteri Höglund 08:31, 14 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

more later. Panu Petteri Höglund 08:31, 14 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

almost forgot: it is of course ...ar Choiste Feidhmeannach Shaorstát Éireann.Panu Petteri Höglund 19:08, 16 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

I think a few hours studying grammar in general could be in order. You'd think school would've imparted some of this to me. I hope I'm not being inconvenient, trying to contribute...Cathal 22:28, 14 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)

It's OK, I have seen contributions by you that haven't looked that bad. But here we see again the quality of the school Irish. :( However, in addition to studying the grammar (use New Irish Grammar by the Christian Brothers) it is imperative to study the unabridged version of Ó Dónaill's dictionary (full of great examples of usage - in fact that is what I myself use it for, not so much to check out new words but to check which preposition to use with a particular verb or that sort of thing). Of course, the best way to acquire a "Gaeltachtish" usage is to read folklore and texts by native authors (and scribble the margins full of annotations and underline everything that you understand but could not have produced yourself) [1]. Of course, folklore and native writers use lots of dialectal forms, and not everything you find in such literature is useful. However, the best way to learn Irish is to have a steady input of Irish in some form - such as these books. 195.16.202.19 12:50, 15 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC) That was me of course, forgot to log in. Panu Petteri Höglund 12:51, 15 Meitheamh 2007 (UTC)